...or, rather, I don't want to hear I'm a traitor to my country.
Published on December 8, 2004 By Solnac In Politics
jin·go·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jngg-zm)
n.
Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.
-Dictionary.com

So God how come every wrong's been done?
With deals no Christ should allow
Once the communist now the terrorist
With blood as thick as yours
- Flogging Molly, Screaming At The Wailing Wall

Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along in the age of paranoia.
-Green Day, Idiot Nation

Dear Jingoists:

I've tried to be calm and nice to you. I've tried to explain how I can feel the way I do to you. I've even spared your feelings, for crying out loud. You scare me. Conservative I can handle, believe me. I may not agree with everything certain users say, I may disagree with you most of the time, but really it's all a matter of subjective reality. Even some of what I feel are most extreme of you, I read their posts and I get the human behind each and every one of you. I have no bone to pick with those of you who are just conservative..I have a conservative friend who I love dearly, and he and I just don't go personal when we talk politics.

It's those of who seem to worship America because it exists. I'm not even going to argue with you that we're the greatest country in the world, in a lot of ways we are. Greatest doesn't mean we're perfect. Greatest doesn't mean that everyone should follow around like a bunch of sheep following around a shephard. Greatest doesn't mean because I think we still need improvement in some areas, I'm a treasonous, hypocritical bastard that deserves to go to Canada. That's not what our country is, it's not what we are. We were founded on principles, and they define us, and if some of us get a little queasy when it comes to torturing people when we have no fucking clue why they are being treated that way, then I feel we're normal. The fact that you can even justify it without a simple chill up your spine suggests to me that somethings either entirely too wrong with you or this country, or both.

And this trusting our president and his adminstration when they choose a direction? Being behind the President 100%? I didn't vote for our current one, first off, so I already disagree with the man on some level. (I did vote, before you try taking that route.) Secondly, we've tried and been burnt by this before. Nixon was a crook. Clinton lied while in the oval office. Possibly a great president policywise in my humble opinion, I know, not in yours, but he lied and made a small mockery of the office when he was in it. (He did, however, lie about something under oath no sane dishonest man would admit to where his wife was within shooting distance. Of course, you know, I don't think the Europeans blinked during that entire scandal.) Carter, while perhaps the greatest ex-president humanitarian in history, was too intellectual to the point of having something we like to call 'analysis paralysis.' I cite those three, but a lot of presidents in recent history had made decisions, in their pasts or their office, that made us go 'huh?' Not all of us are wired the same way as you, when I find something that makes me go 'huh?' I tend to want to examine it. The fact that other countries hate his guts makes me twitch, along with the fact that they cared so much about our election. Protesting is not a crime against the country. The right to assemble is in a weird document called the Constitution with the freedom of speech. I recommend it sometime, it makes an engaging read.

Let's rewind to the 'other countries' thing. 'Other countries' may disagree with our policy decisions and decide it's not for them. Just because they do, it doesn't make those 'other countries' evil, or worthy of our mocking. 'Other countries', like us liberals, may also disagree with where the country's going. It doesn't make them or the liberals your enemy. We have a history (some of it very recent) with most of those industralized 'other countries' as allies and friends. Allies and friends advise each other, and usually allies and friends tend to give a shit when allies and friends tell other allies and friends that frankly, they suck and can't agree. We owe some civility within dealings with 'other countries', even if it's to tell them that we're going to do it our way, thanks. That is the reason Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh were not nominees for Secretary of State. And let's face it...mocking Canada? Why don't you go find a guy who fell and slipped on an ice patch and beat him up a little? I mean, Canada's modern and industralized, but they're not even close to superpower status in recent history. It's like beating up your younger sibling; after a while, I think you forget why you do it.

Oh, we may not worship the same God/Gods as you. Freedom of religion. In that Constitution thingy. Look it up. We may not worship any. I sincerely hope if you do, you're finding a contented path in what you're doing, and question the universe every so often. Politics and religion don't mix, by the way. Just because there is a God, does not mean He wants to be president. That's probably why He created fallable humans--that and I think He has a sense of humor. Oh, fallablity. Another reason why we shouldn't always blindly trust the president's office--he's human too. (Note I used lowercase to denote the president from a diety. I try not to make that mistake as often as possible.)

Oh, yeah, those minority rights you find 'quaint'. (Acutally, I think you use more crude terms than that.) Some of them are silly...but would you want to be without them in a certain situtation? This country was founded on the backs of immigrants. Some of them didn't speak English as their native tongue. Some of the people who come into our country don't speak English. We can and should teach them. Meanwhile, we should worry about more why we're divided then exactly who's got what rights on the where now. As for PC--not offending people is good.

So...you don't like me, and I don't like you. We get to deal with each other....because, I'll tell you all something right now. I am not going ANYWHERE. You can't turn me off, you won't shut me down, and you're free to blacklist me, but I'll still be around, publishing articles. So, I apologize to you conservatives here for a healthy debate and your spin on things, you moderates (there are a few of you, aren't there?) and of course, my liberal compatriots who'll probably eat this up or think 'dear God, he's in a bunch, isn't he?' I've begun to enjoy all of you that seem to be here for what this is meant for, debate and discussion, not 'bash the liberals' day.

Oh, and the rest of you....I'm expecting your flames. (You've either divined who you are, or are much too arrogant to deal with it. And before anyone asks, it is NOT little whip. I respect her opinions and her blog (I wish I had that audience!) and she's been very civil and accomdating to me.) And to quote from a fictional woman wiser than I, "...in the parlance of high school cheerleading comedies, 'to bring it on'".

Sincerely Flipping the Jingoists the New York State Bird (it's also a hand gesture) and smirking,

The wolf dragon/AWM,

Sol

Comments (Page 1)
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on Dec 08, 2004
Amen, brother/sister! I'm a little jack of the whole deal as well. I thought it would die down after the election but if anything it seems to have got worse.
on Dec 08, 2004
Amen, brother/sister! I'm a little jack of the whole deal as well. I thought it would die down after the election but if anything it seems to have got worse.


Brother would be correct to my sex, and it's good I'm preaching to the choir, at least. Yeah, yeah it has...espically around here. Didn't notice until I started blogging.
on Dec 08, 2004
"Greatest doesn't mean because I think we still need improvement in some areas, I'm a treasonous, hypocritical bastard that deserves to go to Canada. "

Canadian citizen here. Hmmm. This line worries me. You seem to be implying that Canada is a land of treasonous, hypocritical bastards.

Oops! Gotta go. I'm late late for my meeting of the treasonous and hypocritical bastards society of Canada.
on Dec 08, 2004


Greatest doesn't mean because I think we still need improvement in some areas, I'm a treasonous, hypocritical bastard that deserves to go to Canada. "

Canadian citizen here. Hmmm. This line worries me. You seem to be implying that Canada is a land of treasonous, hypocritical bastards.

Oops! Gotta go. I'm late late for my meeting of the treasonous and hypocritical bastards society of Canada


! I did type THAT one without thinking (or editing) . What I meant is these people have a rather fond obsession with saying that liberals should go to Canada. While I am a liberal and enjoy Canada (I have family there), I've not given up on the USA yet. I'm glad that you enjoyed this article, even though I hope sincerely this isn't a problem in Canada.
on Dec 08, 2004
I did type THAT one without thinking (or editing) . What I meant is these people have a rather fond obsession with saying that liberals should go to Canada. While I am a liberal and enjoy Canada (I have family there), I've not given up on the USA yet. I'm glad that you enjoyed this article, even though I hope sincerely this isn't a problem in Canada.


Not a problem. Although we do have some jingoism here we don't have the belief that were are the greatest country on the planet. Actually, at times we seem to have just the opposite. A bit of an inferiority complex I'm afraid. But that's nothing a few Molsons and hockey on the t.v. won't fix.
on Dec 08, 2004

dont hold back now...if you got somethin to say, just go head on and let it out

i dont have any problem with real conservatives.  barry goldwater is one of my longtime heroes. im totally comfortable with john mccain.  barry could be abrasive but he was principled and honest as is mccain.  one other attribute they share--its so apparent its almost palpable--is their absolute refusal to put their interests before the interests of this country.

yesterday morning--outta the blue--it struck me that those who are most vocal about loving the country or leaving it are also perpetually raging as they trot out a neverending parade of outrages and abominations, proclaiming each to be the single most catastrophic threat until that honor is suddenly attached to the next in line.  all in all they remind me of guys stuck in an unhappy relationship--while they may genuinely believe they love america with the fervor they demand of others,  they surely dont seem to like it much. 

pehaps theyre the ones that should be thinkin bout goin elsewhere.  altho im not sure if anyone would have em.   

on Dec 08, 2004
I know there are a few kooks on the right here at JU, but also some on the left as well. But I would not think there was a preponderance of them.

Many of us make fun of the loony left's desire to sneak across the border to Canada after the last Election, but no one that I heard of, told them to get out or shut up. Perhaps I am just not reading enough of the blogs here abouts.
on Dec 08, 2004
"Sincerely Flipping the Jingoists the New York State Bird (it's also a hand gesture) and smirking,"

So you're a New Yorker, Sol ... city? Suburbs? Up-state? If you don't mind sharing, where were you on 911? And any thoughts on how America's National psyche’s been affected by that day?
on Dec 08, 2004

at the utter failure of the lefts "war on poverty" which has been going on for what, almost 40 years now? Or, to be fair, the rights "war on drugs."

im not sure any of the various 'wars on ______', no matter which viennese medical school alumnus deserves a good villager-sponsored castle-torching for having givin it life ,has done anything but cost a lotta money while staggering and stumblng towards a happily anticipated but expasteratingly elusive death.  which is exactly why the most current manifestation dont impress me at all.

on Dec 08, 2004
Yeah, that was the best post I've read in a while. I've never heard the term Jingoist before.

but Im uncomfortable with the idea that we should be compelled to act in anything less than our own best interests when it comes to foreign policy

I think that it would be in your best interest to cooperate. You may discover that one day if you find yourself with no allies and less and less trading partners.

Personally (notice - opinion) I think it more noble to always do what is best for the world as a whole. It might be (it's not, but if it was) in your best interest to do many things that would could have very negative consequences. It's in my best interest to steal things for myself thereby accumulating wealth - yet I don't do things just because it's good for me, but it has to also be good for others - at least not harmful to others. And I don't necesarilly think it should be different with nations - that they should be completely self-serving.
on Dec 08, 2004
So you're a New Yorker, Sol ... city? Suburbs? Up-state? If you don't mind sharing, where were you on 911? And any thoughts on how America's National psyche’s been affected by that day?


hitparade--Acutally, I'm not from New York--it's an old Captial Steps joke. I've never been farther east then about Minneapolis/St. Paul. I live in Boise, Idaho, which is about as red as you get, to use the old state color parlance. I was in my friends car because I spent the night at his place. I had stayed up until 4 or 5 in the morning playing some computer game or another, and dozing in the car with the radio on, when something dragged me out of my half sleeping state...that thing was that planes had crashed into the twin towers. I hope that doesn't invalidate the joke or offend New Yorkers. My thoughts on the National Psyche, if you still care, is we're more paranoid, a bigger chance to be fearful, and will are more prone to follow whatever warning or news that will make us all 'safe' again. I think personally on the griveing chart of the country, we're not past 'bargaining'.

its so apparent its almost palpable--is their absolute refusal to put their interests before the interests of this country.


kingbee--Which I'll admit is what I admire about true conservatives is their conviction. Dislike their positions as much as I do, they stick by what they think is best for the country, while liberals are more prone to navel gazing, more changable as people's opinons do, seeing things from as many sides as possible. It's something of a strength and a weakness in both parties.
I will 'let it out' more often, thank you very much! =D


I tend to think of them as dreamers, though....the 'in a perfect world...' crew. They have decent ideas, but the problem is that many of them simply cant be implemented in any sane fashion. Hey yeah, it would be wonderful if we all had health care, and higher incomes, and things like that....but how? Im not saying these things are impossible, just that the left really hasnt presented much in the way of realistically do-able solutions.Did you know that I think Communism is a noble idea? The old "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" creed? The problem is that it simply doesnt work because it goes against basic human nature, which is that of self interest rather than a borg-like dedication to the 'hive.' (or collective, if you will.)Ideas aside, im more solution oriented, and like Draginol, i see the Conservative Party offering more solutions, not perfect solutions but do-able programs to address some of these things, while i tend to view the left as discontented dreamers, wishing things were better, complaining about conditions, but otherwise directionless.


Fair enough, little whip, because we are. Communism was founded out of a dream everyone could be equal, and it would have worked, if you could somehow eliminate human corruption. That's a pretty big 'if', I'm willing to admit. Personally, the left needs a politican who can crunch the numbers and say, 'Look. We can house everyone and feed everyone and everything, but it's going to take money, and it's going to take resources.' And be blunt that'll it probably raise taxes. The left suffer from this 'I have a dream' ideal, but they're so afraid of pissing people off by raising taxes. You're running for a political position, you will have to make a difficult and unpouplar decision at sometime or make none at all. I just find...well, going to be honest here, the problems with most conservative plans is they empower the top 20% of the country and companies...and expect things to get better for the rest of us because of stimulus and competition. What acutally happens, is you end up with a classist system and corporations getting fat and happy. A corporation is what it is, and it's out for their bottom line. What needs to be done is the government needs to make it cheaper to do business in America than elsewhere. I think recinding corporate tax breaks for those who lay off employees to raise their stocks and outsource completely is a good start, and rewarding companies who create new jobs, value their employees and don't outsource.

Yeah, that was the best post I've read in a while. I've never heard the term Jingoist before.


It's obscure. It came from a song in one of the World Wars, and I can't remember which one. It's one of my favorite words to know and stump people with. Great scrabble word if you can get the letters to work, too.

on Dec 08, 2004
let me echo my sentiments on that.


It's very much a definition of who is "we" that we want to benefit. The smaller "we" is, in honesty, the worse off you're likely to be (not always, but likely).

We- might mean a particular race
we- might mean men
we - might mean only americans
or we, we just might mean humanity.

I like the last definition.
on Dec 08, 2004
err- the above was in reply to Mismos.
on Dec 09, 2004
Solnac: "that Constitution thingy. Look it up."

Excellent suggestion.
on Dec 09, 2004
Let's rewind to the 'other countries' thing. 'Other countries' may disagree with our policy decisions and decide it's not for them. Just because they do, it doesn't make those 'other countries' evil, or worthy of our mocking. 'Other countries', like us liberals, may also disagree with where the country's going. It doesn't make them or the liberals your enemy. We have a history (some of it very recent) with most of those industralized 'other countries' as allies and friends. Allies and friends advise each other, and usually allies and friends tend to give a shit when allies and friends tell other allies and friends that frankly, they suck and can't agree. We owe some civility within dealings with 'other countries', even if it's to tell them that we're going to do it our way, thanks. That is the reason Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh were not nominees for Secretary of State. And let's face it...mocking Canada? Why don't you go find a guy who fell and slipped on an ice patch and beat him up a little? I mean, Canada's modern and industralized, but they're not even close to superpower status in recent history. It's like beating up your younger sibling; after a while, I think you forget why you do it.


One thing we must remember is that nations don't have friends, they have interests. When people start realizing that each nation's interest in other nations is fueled by self-interest, then real cooperation and tolerance can take place.
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